Hello All,
I'll try to sum up my situation as clear as possible because it is so messed up and because English is my second language. I am a separated woman for 7 months. The reason we separated is that my husband had cheated on me w/ his best friend's wife when his best friend was in Iraq. Since we separated, I moved into another state and I have been dating with this guy for 6 months. Now I am pregnant with my bf for 4 weeks.
I can get a divorce real quick and marry this man, but he doesn't seem to be willing to do so. The reason for it is he is a devoted Christian (I don't know how he committed fornification and/or adultery with me...ironically), and I am a Muslim. I am a 29 year old career woman, and he is a 44 year old man who doesn't do very well financially. Since I am carrying this baby for 4 weeks, I have thought a lot. I experienced abortion 10 years ago in my home country, but I have never felt regretful. I was a teenager going to the college, and I thought it was the only option for me then. It really was. I finished my college, got my BSc, Masters etc. I did what I had to do. Once in a while, I have thought like that if I had that baby what he/she would have looked like etc, but honestly I didn't rfeel any regret or stress because of my decision. It was only 4 weeks abortion.
Now that I get older, I started feeling about different on this issue. I feel like I am at the right age, healthy and ready-to-be-mom. The only problem is FOB doesn't want to marry me because we are from different faiths. He wants me to convert. He is so opposed to abortion (religiously), but he can't marry a Muslim either (oh well...he should have thought about it while making love, right?) Why would I change my religion for him? Does it make sense to you? I feel like that he might marry me because of the baby, but now I don't want to marry anybody just for the baby.
Even though he never told me he loves me, he told me he likes me very much, and I feel love towards him (even though he has a different belief system than I do.) I have even thought about being a single mother, but even though I am a career woman, I am a salaried person, and if I'd lose my job, what would we do (me and my baby...I am too proud to live in food stamp especially as an immigrant...I am not a parasite, and I'd prefer going back home)?
Sometimes I feel like I'd do better without FOB. What do you think about single parentship? I think I could raise my kid as I wish, and he/she would never abandon and/or judge me like men do. However, what would I tell my kid when he/she asks about his/her father? "He didn't want you...or us"....So sad...If I'd be a single mother, noone would hold my hand while giving a birth or share all of the moments with me...I live in a foreign country all by myself, and I know that I am a strong woman and a survivor; however, I don't know if I am that strong or not. Also we know that most men perceive women with kids like women with baggages. I feel like my chance to have a good marriage would decrease (then again, it is a selfish thought...)
I have made my appointment already for next week for an abortion before it gets too late, but I feel like I'd like to be a mother too. I just don't know how to sort things out. An unfinished marriage, confused bf, unknown future....Pls let me hear your opinions.
Thanks,
Nina
Thursday, July 21, 2005
inter-faith relation in another marriage w/ a pregnancy
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Hi Nina and welcome to the board! Stick around as long as you like! I thought you worded your situation quite nicely. It sounds as if you are prepared to raise this baby and are looking for reasons to convince yourself of that. Abortion is never an easy choice but neither is parenting. It does sound as if the bf has quite a double standard, he can commit adultery but cannot marry with you? I would not worry about him at all while you are deciding. You sound as if you would be fine with or without him. Have you considered seeking a out a crisis pregnancy center? They are listed under "abortion alternatives" in the yellow pages. You mentioned being alone and they can counsel with you and perhaps kind of mentor you so to speak. I volunteer at just such a place here and I have been to the hospital before with a girl who had no family. Besides, can he not support you through a pregnancy and still be a part of baby's life even if he isnt with you? What about a place of worship? Is there a support group you could join there? The overall tone of your post sounds as if you lean toward parenting. Motherhood is a great joy and a priviledge. We will stand by you either way and remember you CAN do it!
Hi Nina,
I agree with Christine. You seem to want this baby, and you would do fine with or without this guy. You seem like a very strong person, and you could make it work if you wanted to. The marriage, boyfriend, different faiths, etc. do make the situation a little complicated, but for right now, just throw everything else out and just think about you. What do YOU want? If there were nothing else to think about what would you decide? I would encourage you to sort it out before you go to your appointment. If you have not decided 100% that abortion is what you want, you should wait. Stick around here, talk it out with us...that's what we're here for! Welcome!
(((HUGS))),
Chris
Hi Nina,
Again, I'm so sorry about the board problems. I know you were eager to get some support and advice. First off, I do think that you should separate from your first husband - no sense in staying married when you're in another state. That will also make it easier for you to make a decision about this new guy.
There's no reason to rush into a marriage with your BF. I definitely recommend not getting into a marriage where your faiths are so different. Technically, Christians aren't supposed to marry those that aren't Christian - just to make things easier within the marriage, but he also should know that he shouldn't have been having sex outside of marriage - if he wants to get strict about it, which he seems to want to. He also can't really ask you to "convert" since your belief system is completely different from his - unless you are interested in exploring his faith.
What line of work are you in? Do women seem to lose their jobs when they have babies? Could you find a job doing a similar thing at another company that is more child friendly? I realize that you may not know these answers, and this is something that a local pregnancy center might be able to help with. A lot of times, they know where the friendly places are. But...a lot of women are single mothers in the workplace. I doubt that you would have a problem keeping your job. It's very smart to think about these things now though so that you can have a plan.
It is worrisome to think about what to tell your child about your parent, but I think that is a question you have time to think of an answer for...
Shoot...have to run for a bit...will write more later. Please post and let us know how you're doing and what you're thinking. Smile ((((Hugs))))
Okay, sorry for the interruption. I think that the best answer I've heard when it comes to explaining why a father didn't stick around is "Mommy has enough love for 10 mommies and daddies." Something like that. Anyone have any other ideas for Nina regarding this?
Do you have any friends that you are close to that could share in this pregnancy/birth? Could you check into a pregnancy center for a get-together of single moms-to-be? They often have "support groups" for this. We'll be here for you, but I know it does help to have people in real life as well. You will most likely meet other pregnant women as your pregnancy advances as well, since it's just something that tends to bond women and create conversation.
It does make it harder to meet men, but I think it can also be a way to "weed out" the bad guys from the good. Know what I mean? It takes a special guy to date a single mom. Wink
Okay hon...that's all I have for you. I would really advise you that if you are feeling that you'd like to be a mother, that you're at the right age, and you are financially stable (for the most part), you should at the least postponse your appointment. Making an appointment before you are sure it is what you want can really do you a disservice by creating a sense of "Oh well...I have an appointment. I'll put it out of my head and just go." If you want this baby, or even if you just think you might want this baby, you should postpone and call to schedule when you're ready - if you're ready.
Hang in there hon, and let us know what you decide. Feel free to keep thinking it out here. We'd love to hear back. Wink
Nina - how are you hon? Are you keeping the appointment tomorrow? Let us know.
Hello,
I'd like to thank you all for all your support and having faith in me even without knowing me.
I postponed my appointment to next Wednesday to think on the issue more extensively because I am still not sure what I want and/or what I can achieve.
Answer to your question: I am an architect.
So far, I let my mother know about the situation. She didn't like what she heard, of course. She wants me to go to my appointment before it gets too late. She said that it is the worst timing ever to be a mother for me (in a marriage from another guy who doesn't want you because of your religion). As a mother, all she thinks is me, and she knows that I'm lonely.
Unfortunately, I don't have any friends to support me (except some co-workers) here since I moved here 7 months ago. My all family lives 3,000 miles far from me, in an another continent. The man that I came here for (my husband) abondoned me, and the other guy, FOB, even said that "why don't you tell everybody that FOB is your husband? So you can give birth and raise the kid." Isn't that hypocracy? He brought me a Bible. If I would convert, he'd marry me I guess, but I don't want to do that because of this reason. I am about to make a life-changing decision about this baby, and I don't want to focus on anything else. Changing one's religion is not such an easy decision. I consider myself a world citizen, and I am a very open-minded person. Therefore, I wouldn't make a big issue out of it, but he does. I know that he is very confused too because he will either have to bring me to the clinic next week (even though he is opposed to abortion) or marry a Muslim. Which one is worse for him, I don't know... All I know is that I don't want to make this decision all by myself. It is just too heavy that I feel on my shoulders every day. He is as responsible as I am, so he should participate the decision process with me and carry the emotional burden of it with me.
Today I've had a very bad nausea, and I am only 5 weeks pregnant (I still have a long way to go). I had to go to emergency last Sunday because of dehydration (I wonder if it affected the baby or not....any idea?). That day I woke up with a sharp pain, and my blood pressure dropped drastically. I'd want to have someone close to me when I have problems like that. I would definitely like to be a mother (now or later). However, I am physically so alone now that I don't know how to deal with this.
I'll let you know. Thanks for all your support and opinions.
Nina
Nina, just a word of encouragement. Rather Muslim or Christian, God loves you just the same and although you may feel alone, look up and He will guide you. I think converting because you are coerced into it is silly. I am a Christian but I have respect and admiration for all faiths. Each one has its good points and each one has its hypocrites Wink Your BF would be extremely selfish to say I can use your body for sex but your soul is somehow unworthy. Your soul is what makes you, well You! If he rejects you over that, I question is belief system. He was obviously living in sin but now wants to use that against you? Unbelievable. Jesus taught unconditional love or agape...We should love others as God first loved us. Perhaps you should have your BF read this. LOL Anyway, I encourage you to persue the matter in prayer. As you said, this will be a life altering decision either way. Your mom wants what is best for you I am sure, but in this case, don't let her pressure you. You alone will have to live with the results of your choice. She may mean well but I would definitely seek out a counselor there locally. A comforting arm around you can really make a difference! I send my love and support (((Hugs))) and best wishes as you make this choice. Try ginger anything for morning sickness and eat crackers early in the morning...Having an empty stomach often makes it worse. Also I hear bananas are good. I doubt the baby was harmed by being dehydrated that once but do be extra careful to drink plenty of water until you decide one way or the other. Have you taken any prenatal vitamins? Those can help maintain your nutrition if you are having trouble keeping food down. Good luck sweetie and we are here for you...Sort of a virtual friend thing...
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I postponed my appointment to next Wednesday to think on the issue more extensively because I am still not sure what I want and/or what I can achieve.
Good thinking hon. It's always good to be sure. Smile
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So far, I let my mother know about the situation. She didn't like what she heard, of course. She wants me to go to my appointment before it gets too late. She said that it is the worst timing ever to be a mother for me (in a marriage from another guy who doesn't want you because of your religion). As a mother, all she thinks is me, and she knows that I'm lonely.
Moms are pretty good at seeing the worst case scenario in everything. Mine can do that pretty easily. Rolling Eyes She is just showing concern for you, and she does want this to be easy for you. Sometimes moms don't realize that even when it takes a little bit more work, it can lead to the more rewarding outcome in the end.
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Unfortunately, I don't have any friends to support me (except some co-workers) here since I moved here 7 months ago.
Were you able to find a pregnancy support group near you? How about someone from your mosque? Anyone you know that is pregnant? You could support eachother.
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He brought me a Bible. If I would convert, he'd marry me I guess, but I don't want to do that because of this reason.
Of course not, and I don't think he's thinking rationally if he thinks you can convert to being a Christian overnight in the middle of this situation.
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I know that he is very confused too because he will either have to bring me to the clinic next week (even though he is opposed to abortion) or marry a Muslim.
Don't forget the other option - you could not go to the clinic and decide to be a single parent or an unmarried couple parenting together.
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Today I've had a very bad nausea, and I am only 5 weeks pregnant (I still have a long way to go). I had to go to emergency last Sunday because of dehydration (I wonder if it affected the baby or not....any idea?).
Baby should be fine...they get all they need from you, which is why you dehydrate easily. Just take good care of yourself hon. Eat peanut butter crackers or toast, gingery stuff, and if it's unbearable, you can take over the counter Dramamine for nausea. (Check with your doctor first.)
Has it been 5 weeks since the first day of your last period? Or 7? I'm just wondering how many days you are by LMP dating.
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I'd want to have someone close to me when I have problems like that. I would definitely like to be a mother (now or later). However, I am physically so alone now that I don't know how to deal with this.
The only way to make that happen is to go looking for support. I know when I was going insane because there weren't any young moms that I could hang out with after my DD was born, I went out and found a mom's group, and that helped tremendously. I can help you look if you like. Wink
(((Hugs))) Thanks for the update hon. I'll be looking forward to hearing from you again.
Thank you for all your support. ((Huggss too)) I do appreciate it. Regarding your question, I don't know how it is calculated, but the first day of my last period was the 10th of June; however, I was conceived on the 22st of June. I am sure of it. How is it calculated?
Nina wrote:
Regarding your question, I don't know how it is calculated, but the first day of my last period was the 10th of June; however, I was conceived on the 22st of June. I am sure of it. How is it calculated?
It's calculated by counting from the first day of your last menstrual period, so that means that today (7/28 ) you are 6 weeks and 6 days pregnant. Friday, you'll be 7 weeks pregnant. Just wanted to let you know that. Wink I have a calculator that shows this here: http://www.choicetolivewith.com/FetalDevelopment/pregnancycalculator.html Here's the info for this week in your pregnancy (6 weeks LMP) if you'd like more info: http://www.choicetolivewith.com/FetalDevelopment/Week4.html
Sometimes it's a surprise to find out that they date your pregnancy in a way that you are pregnant before you even conceive! LOL Wink
How are you doing Nina? I hope things are coming along nicely in your decision-making process.
Hi Rose:
Thanks for all your help and support. It is invaluable for me since I am so far from everybody and everything. I have been thinking and days go by. My BF is in Las Vegas now, and he is supposed to come back with an answer on Monday. I have the appointment for the procedure on Wednesday. If he doesn't want to marry me, he'll take me there because I have nobody else that I can tell and/or can drive me there.
I have been thinking about all, and I am very alone with my own thoughts. I don't think that I can be a single mother. I DO want to be a mother, but I need some emotional support during and after preganancy and I want it every day during this process. I have been thinking that if my bf won't be here for me, I can't take it all. I am not that strong. I wanna be a mother, but when my baby smiles, walks, talks, I want to share it with its father, not with a baby-sitter or nanny.
You may think that I am not so religious since I committed adultery (even though my marriage has ended a year ago and we are separated for 7 months, so I am only married in paper); however, I don't want to bring an illegitimate child to the world. Abortion is OK up to 12 weeks in my religion. I have already committed adultery, on top of it I don't want to have a fatherless baby. I was more eager to have the baby at the beginning; however, since the time passes and the realities hit, I feel like that I don't have the luxury to satisfy my maternal instints at this time of my life.
While leaving for Vegas, he told me that I have only one phone call right to call him becuase he'll be on vacation and he doesn't want to be disturbed. So selfish....If he would have really loved me and wanted our baby, he'd have called me every day to check up on me since I had to go to emergency room two weeks ago (he knows it). However, he doesn't care. I know that I shouldn't focus on him but what I want and the baby, but I am really not sure about what to do. I don't want to mess my life either. I have never seen abortion is a birth-control technique and it is not something that I encourage someone to go for. However, I can't just go with the flow. I feel like that I have to be in control of flow of my life (as much as I can). I can't picture myself as a single parent. What do you think?
Thanks,
Nina
Nina wrote:
If he doesn't want to marry me, he'll take me there because I have nobody else that I can tell and/or can drive me there.
Is there any talk of you being an unmarried couple that parents this child? Thay way he could still share in the pregnancy, birth, and see the baby growing up, and that way you could finish ironing out the details about marriage later, when the stress isn't quite as high.
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You may think that I am not so religious since I committed adultery (even though my marriage has ended a year ago and we are separated for 7 months, so I am only married in paper); however, I don't want to bring an illegitimate child to the world. Abortion is OK up to 12 weeks in my religion.
I forgot until now that we kind of dealt with this issue on another post regarding the Muslim faith and abortion: http://www.webgroups.us/choicetolivewith/viewtopic.php?t=98&highlight=muslim
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While leaving for Vegas, he told me that I have only one phone call right to call him becuase he'll be on vacation and he doesn't want to be disturbed.
Rolling Eyes What an idiot. bs
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I feel like that I have to be in control of flow of my life (as much as I can). I can't picture myself as a single parent. What do you think?
Well, I can't really tell you what to do, but I will tell you that you're incredibly stronger than you give yourself credit for! Look at what you've accomplished so far - coming to a forein country, learning the language, creating a successful career...this isn't something that just anyone can accomplish. This shows me that you take things in life and make them work for you. I think you could most definitely be a single parent if you want to. Remember that the pregnancy part lasts very short in comparison to the child's life after birth...I think a lot of women find single motherhood to be very rewarding - hard, but rewarding. I also think that if you did not want to be a mom right now, with this pregnancy, this decision might have been a little easier on you. You're thoughts?
Once again, I can help you find a mom's support group where you can meet friends who will be able to share in the every day concerns and joys. And if you and BF would be willing to be unmarried parents, he could also support you through this. I gotta tell you though - most men are not sensitive when women are pregnant. Is this just me? LOL. My husband was not the most understanding person, although he did sit through Gone With the Wind because I asked him to when I was on bedrest. LOL. I can see my DH telling me, "Hey hon, don't call me every 10 minutes while I'm gone to talk about this." Men need space and time while women prefer to talk it out. Wink
(((((Hugs))))) Looking forward to hearing back from you soon! I hope we can get a decision made before Wednesday, but if you can't...you can always postpone again.
Sometimes we think too much. Our head runs away with fear and doubt. I will tell you as a woman who has aborted, that you must follow your heart on this one sweetie. Your heart will never steer you wrong. If you feel like you are already a mother, having the abortion will never change that. If your religion says abortion is ok, then you might not have the same type of guilt that many of us are faced with. The stigma can be great if you come from a religious family. (most evangelical Christian's believe that the unborn child has a soul and is fully alive from conception). However, as a word of caution, make sure this choice is ok with you and not just your religion. I agree with Rose, you sound strong and I wanted to let you know that completing a pregnancy and giving birth to a child, even a fatherless one, is no luxury. LOL It is a gift from God and although some gifts come as suprises, they can still bring lots of joy. Just be sure of what you want, not what BF wants. Why is your choice dependant on what he says/does? You know what your strengths are and if you did decide to parent and he didnt want to help, it would be his loss. KWIM? Best wishes no matter what you decide. We are here for you.
I agree with the previous posters! I just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you. Hang in there--answers will come to you! I also believe in "Follow your heart it will never steer you wrong" as the pp said. You sound like a very strong woman to me! Best wishes as you work this through!
Musiclover
I forgot to mention, I'm going to ask my pastor about your situation (hypothetically, of course). It presents an interesting quandry, and I wonder what he would advise your BF. I'll let you know what I find out. Just hope I can remember...lol. I'm not good in the morning. Anxious
Thanks once more for all your support and information. I have been thinking about it (there is no moment that I don't actually), and I am still nowhere.
Rose, I'd so much appreciate that if you could ask my situation to your pastor since I am not well informed on Christianity. My BF insists that he CAN'T marry outside of his faith, but I don't believe it. I was reading Bible to see what it says and it says "don't yolk with unbelievers etc...". but it doesn't say "don't marry". To me, it lookes like more of like trade advise. It might not be recommended because of a lot of practical reasons, but I didn't see a certain prohibition/certain sentence. Plus, I am not an agnostic or atheist. I am a believer. I do believe the same God, Jesus, all prophets (only difference than what Christians believe is we also believe ours with all other prophets), heaven-hell, judgment day etc etc. To me, different religions are like different rivers coming from the same source and going to the same source, pouring to the same ocean.
I read about that lady's post about her Muslim BF didn't want to marry her because his Muslim friends would kill him. That is so wrong. I am not going into the theological details, but a Muslim man CAN marry a Christian or Jewish woman. He can't marry an agnostic or an atheist. For a Muslim woman, it is little bit more complicated. It is not advisable/recommended. The reason for that it is believed that men have stronger will than women. Therefore, a Muslim man may convert his non-Muslim wife more easily than a Muslim woman may convert her non-Muslim husband. It is believed that woman are weaker and can change their ways easily than men (which is definitely not true for me....lol) Also, it is believed that religion of the prospective kids (offspring) comes from the father, not from the mother. I have searched it so extensively because I was concerned about this religion issue before marrying my Christian husband. He wasn't such a devoted Christian, so we didn't have an issue on it. Therefore, before marrying, I had told him that religious training of the children is my job, and I will educate them as I wish. He had accepted. Since I trust my strong character, I never doubted that he'd convert me anyhow. Still some scholars says that a Muslim woman CAN'T marry a non-Muslim. Like all religions, there are liberal scholars and conservative ones. Basically, I look up directly to the source (the book...Quran for Islam and Bible for Christianity) and try to understand what it says. Since everybody's situation is so different, I don't like generalizations. While marrying to non-Muslim too, I had searched the reasons why and took necessary action (talked with him about my future kids' religion before marrying) because this is the reason why it was not advised. Now, as you see, I am pregnant from a devoted Protestant who tries to convert me....So ironic...
In abortion issue, as I said, there are liberal scholars and conservative ones. Although most scholars would say that it is totally unacceptable/sin some would say it is OK up to 12 weeks because what we believe soul is blown to the embriyo at that point. Especially if there is a rape etc involved.
BTW my BF called me yesterday from Las Vegas. He said that he will come up with an answer on Tuesday night since he is coming back Monday night late. The reason of why I depend on him while making my decision is that I don't want to carry all the responsibility of this decision all by myself. It is too much, even for me. Even though I am the one who carries the baby, we did it together, didn't we? He can't just disappear like that because it is the only fair. If I will go for an abortion, he will have to come with me and experience all regret, sadness with me simultenously (he can't feel the physical pain though). If he is so religious as he says, he would suffer, I think. On the other hand, if I will parent this baby, he will be there with me because what I've decided is that I am not going to be a single parent. I am not going to parent him/her outside of marriage either. I made it clear to him, now I am waiting to hear from him. It feels somehow better because at least I have convinced myself that I don't have to make such a life-changing decision all by myself.
BTW I had some spots on my pantyliner today which made me worried, even though he had told me "a miscarriage would be a gift now."...I feel so sick today, so I better go and get some rest.
Thank y'all.
Nina
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Rose, I'd so much appreciate that if you could ask my situation to your pastor since I am not well informed on Christianity.
Okay, I did ask him today. He did say that he would not advise him to marry you based on the info he had and the fact that he is a professing Christian and you are a Muslim. That's what I had thought, but I just wanted to get some feedback. He did mention that most mainstream Muslims do not condone abortion, but you're right...the liberal Muslims do. He stressed that I should tell you that both faiths do encourage faith in God to get you through any situation He gives you.
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My BF insists that he CAN'T marry outside of his faith, but I don't believe it. I was reading Bible to see what it says and it says "don't yolk with unbelievers etc...". but it doesn't say "don't marry".
Being married is being yoked together, and actually this verse extends to all partnerships that a Christian makes. It sounds like your last DH was not too involved in his faith, which might make it easier, but if you and BF were to marry, it sounds like there would be conflicts as far as teaching the child would go.
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To me, it lookes like more of like trade advise. It might not be recommended because of a lot of practical reasons, but I didn't see a certain prohibition/certain sentence. Plus, I am not an agnostic or atheist. I am a believer. I do believe the same God, Jesus, all prophets (only difference than what Christians believe is we also believe ours with all other prophets), heaven-hell, judgment day etc etc. To me, different religions are like different rivers coming from the same source and going to the same source, pouring to the same ocean.
Many Christian faiths (protestant especially) don't believe this. That's where the bulk of the difference is. If you'd like to talk more about this type of thing, I'd be open to discussing that with you. My email address is choicetolivewith@comcast.net
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In abortion issue, as I said, there are liberal scholars and conservative ones. Although most scholars would say that it is totally unacceptable/sin some would say it is OK up to 12 weeks because what we believe soul is blown to the embriyo at that point. Especially if there is a rape etc involved.
I had read that the Muslim faith also believes that you cannot kill the soul, so therefore...either abortion is always okay throughout pregnancy or always wrong. Is this true...I'm curious?
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The reason of why I depend on him while making my decision is that I don't want to carry all the responsibility of this decision all by myself. It is too much, even for me. Even though I am the one who carries the baby, we did it together, didn't we? He can't just disappear like that because it is the only fair. If I will go for an abortion, he will have to come with me and experience all regret, sadness with me simultenously (he can't feel the physical pain though). If he is so religious as he says, he would suffer, I think.
I can see how this sounds logical, but I think it leaves a lot of room for regret if you want to parent this child, because later on, you may wonder why you let him have the final say when it really wasn't what you wanted. And no matter what hon, he won't hurt on the same level as you will - if you do experience feelings of loss/regret/etc. I also am concerned that you know going into this that you are going to have those feelings, and you want to make sure he has them too.
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On the other hand, if I will parent this baby, he will be there with me because what I've decided is that I am not going to be a single parent. I am not going to parent him/her outside of marriage either. I made it clear to him, now I am waiting to hear from him. It feels somehow better because at least I have convinced myself that I don't have to make such a life-changing decision all by myself.
If he is truly a Christian, he can no more marry you than he could have pre-marital sex with you. Confused Since he did that, I can't really say what decision he'll make. Wink I'll be waiting with bated breath to find out what he says though.
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BTW I had some spots on my pantyliner today which made me worried, even though he had told me "a miscarriage would be a gift now."...I feel so sick today, so I better go and get some rest.
Spotting can be normal. Here's some info about spotting: http://www.choicetolivewith.com/FetalDevelopment/week3.html and miscarriage: http://www.choicetolivewith.com/FetalDevelopment/Week4.html in case you'd like to know more.
((((Hugs)))) You're in my thoughts hon. I hope the next couple of days make things clearer for you.
Thanks for your reply Rose. You wrote that "I had read that the Muslim faith also believes that you cannot kill the soul, so therefore...either abortion is always okay throughout pregnancy or always wrong. Is this true...I'm curious?". You are correct. You can't kill a soul, but the difference is here. We believe soul is blown on the 12th week to the embriyo; therefore, prior to that you don't kill a soul. However, as I said, most scholars would oppose abortion anyway.
BTW I didn't know Christians can not marry whom they made love to (even the partner is a Christian?). Is that correct? I mean, it mustn't be done at the first place anyhow (fornication), but if this is true, most people don't follow this rule.
I don't want to open up another forum regarding religions because even though I am a believer, I also believe it is a very personal choice (like keeping the baby or not), and we all have different choices to live with. I respect everybody's choice, and I expect to be treated the same. The reason why I got into the religion issue, I wanted to ask you from the Christianity point of view since I am not well-informed. I didn't want my BF mislead me. Just like that Christian lady's situation (her Muslim BF had told her lies because she wasn't informed)...I am not a man-hater or so, but eventually (as we mostly see) Muslim, Christian, Budist etc....men are men. They tend to use and throw you away (not all of course).
Regarding what he will say, I don't know either. We will wait and see. Tomorrow he will give me an answer. However, I am not keeping my hopes high. Plus, I have reservations about him too. I mean, I was so much ready to marry him if he wanted to, but when time passes, I can see things more clearly. He should be the one who needs to chase after me, not IWink Objectivelly, I am 14 year younger than him, more educated, making more money etc...However, I had loved him. Tonight will be long for me.
Many thanks,
Nina
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You can't kill a soul, but the difference is here. We believe soul is blown on the 12th week to the embriyo; therefore, prior to that you don't kill a soul. However, as I said, most scholars would oppose abortion anyway.
It must mean that prior to 12 weeks you don't believe it is a person then? Is that about what it amounts to? Some faiths - and the general public - do feel that way. I'd encourage you to evaluate your own thoughts on whether you think of it as your baby or an embryo...usually that's pretty telling and a good way to gauge things.
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BTW I didn't know Christians can not marry whom they made love to (even the partner is a Christian?). Is that correct? I mean, it mustn't be done at the first place anyhow (fornication), but if this is true, most people don't follow this rule.
Right. It's supposed to be that he should not have had sex outside of marriage, and therefore, he would only be able to pick a Christian woman, marry her, and then make love to her. You're right though - a lot of people choose to do other than the Bible says.
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I don't want to open up another forum regarding religions because even though I am a believer, I also believe it is a very personal choice (like keeping the baby or not), and we all have different choices to live with. I respect everybody's choice, and I expect to be treated the same.
I can totally understand why you have questions, and I think it's good that you are able to get answers to them. Since it is such a personal thing, I'd encourage you to email me to talk more about questions you have if you do not feel comfortable doing it here.
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Regarding what he will say, I don't know either. We will wait and see. Tomorrow he will give me an answer. However, I am not keeping my hopes high.
Well hon, just take it slow. You still have 4 weeks until your 12-week limit is up. Him telling you the night before doesn't give you a lot of time to get used to his decision. If you decide, after hearing that he doesn't want to marry you, you are free to do what you feel is best for you. You are an independant person, and this is your choice hon, okay?
Do you have any questions about the procedure? What time is your appointment? What kind of abortion are you scheduled for?
(((((Hugs))))) I'll be waiting to hear back from you.
Hi Nina,
I agree with Rose. In the end, it is ultimately your decision. What if his answer is different than where your heart is leading you? I think you are wise to have reservations about him. Do you really want him dictating how you are to live your life? I know you love(d) him and that always makes things difficult. But he has acted in a less than upstanding way, and you are the one paying for it. I'm sorry to sound so harsh toward him, I just can't stand it when women are treated so terribly. Like you said, used up and thrown away. Man, that makes me mad! Mad Anyway, I'm sorry if I've offended you, just wanting you to make sure that your decision is your own, and one that YOU will be able to live with.
(((HUGS))),
Chris
You're right, it is not believed it is a "person" prior to 12 weeks. I don't use this argument to justify what I am planning to do though. Don't get me wrong.
My procedure is a surgical one. I am coming from a doctor family. They told me that medical methods haven't been tested long enough. Also, my family practitioner told me (2 weeks ago) that he saw something in the news about deaths due medical abortions (here in the States). He said that it happened because of the patients didn't follow instructions most probably, but he just wanted to warn me. Plus, he had told me that some medical (chemical) methods may have an effect on your future pregnancies, like birth defects. It happened with some drugs in the past. Having a FDA approval may not guarantee much. Also, if it doesn't work, you have to go for surgical one anyhow, so why to take that risk?
I know that the surgical one is an invasive technique, and they may even punch my uterus. However, it still feels (for me anyhow) safer than untested methods. I wouldn't want to do a medical abortion alone by myself at home (cramps, bleeding etc). I believe I'd freak out. I prefer being under a physician's control when it is happening. They offered me two choices : general or local anestesia. If I go, I will go for local one because there won't be side affects of general anestesia. I also feel like the doctor would be kinder and more careful towards me since I'd be awake. I won't allow curetage inside of me several times. I'll tell him not "no curetage" if possible, or just 1 extra move after aspiration. My uncle had told me that a vacuum aspiration is the best between 6-8 weeks, no earlier or later. If it's earlier, there is risk of un-completed, unsuccessful abortion. Also, I am not not going to wait up to 12 weeks. I have had 2 available weeks to schedule, and I used my right to re-schedule. In this case, it will either happen this week or I'll keep it. I see it as my last chance.
I also searched for my physician on the net and got a report about his credentials. He seems experienced (33 years) and a board-certified ob, even though I don't like very old doctors (they may not be so up-to-date). I am not afraid of the procedure since I have been operated 7 times. I had my herniated disc operation (from my back) done while chatting with my doctor (it was epidural). I also believe in God, and I know that he would be watching over me. I do believe in faith, so I can't prevent things from happening. Whenever I go under an operation, I pray and try to stay still and try to be cooperative with my doctor to make his/her job easier. I am a good patient Smile I am more scared of the emotional outcomes of my decision. I know there might be a risk for depression after it. However, these is similar kind of depression risk at the end of the birth too, blue feelings...No matter what, because of our hormons, we poor women are stuck with some kind of a depression.
Honestly, I can't favor one to another at this point. My BF will tell something, but I am really not sure anymore that I want to hear him to propose me because he has left me so alone....
Thanks to y'all.
Nina
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He said that it happened because of the patients didn't follow instructions most probably, but he just wanted to warn me. Plus, he had told me that some medical (chemical) methods may have an effect on your future pregnancies, like birth defects. It happened with some drugs in the past. Having a FDA approval may not guarantee much. Also, if it doesn't work, you have to go for surgical one anyhow, so why to take that risk?
Actually, it seems to be the way the physicians are administering the drug...having women insert them into the vagina instead of swallow them orally like the FDA recommends.
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Also, I am not not going to wait up to 12 weeks. I have had 2 available weeks to schedule, and I used my right to re-schedule. In this case, it will either happen this week or I'll keep it. I see it as my last chance.
Is this what the clinic told you? That you have only 1 chance to reschedule...I hadn't heard that before. You can always reschedule. I know you're trying to limit yourself, but honestly hon, in this case if you aren't sure, don't do it just because you have an appointment made. I've seen that one backfire.
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I am more scared of the emotional outcomes of my decision. I know there might be a risk for depression after it. However, these is similar kind of depression risk at the end of the birth too, blue feelings...No matter what, because of our hormons, we poor women are stuck with some kind of a depression.
I think I gave you this link already: http://www.choicetolivewith.com/AbortionConcerns/concern2.html It deals with the possibility of having sadness and/or depression after abortion. The baby blues do occur after birth too...and yes it has to do a lot with hormones. Women with negative response to abortion though, tend to have it a little worse since (1) there is no baby there due to the choice of the woman and they therefore (2) have feelings of loss and/or regret to deal with as well. Does that make sense? I must stress that not all women feel this way, but given some of the things you have said, I do believe you will have some difficulty with this aspect.
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Honestly, I can't favor one to another at this point. My BF will tell something, but I am really not sure anymore that I want to hear him to propose me because he has left me so alone....
Well, just keep talking it out here hon. Like I've said before, no matter what he "decides" - this is still going to be your choice. You need to feel comfortable with it...110% sure I like to say. Wink ((((Hugs)))) I wish this was easier for you. You do still have time to decide hon.
the darkest hour is always just before dawn. author unknown
Keep the faith sister and stay strong. We are here for you.
My BF came and told me that he loves me and will marry me, only if I convert. I told him that I am not converting before learning the religion. I have read the Bible to the half, but I am not there yet. I tol him that I am not trading the baby with my religion. Tomorrow (today actually) we are going to the clinic. I am not 110% sure of my decision, but I don't think there is such a thing in this issue. I'll let you know about after. Pray for me.
Okay hon, we'll be thinking of you tomorrow. I'm sorry to hear that you aren't going to get what you really want out of this situation. ((((Hugs)))) Please update us, okay?
Nina, I think in one aspect you are very wise. You understand that onverting only to make another individual happy is not the right reason. True convictions cannot be made based on coercion. Your marriage to him would probably be doomed from the start because of resentment over having to convert. I am also sorry that you have had to go through this but remember that everything happens for a reason. We as mortals rarely get the priviledge of seeing the big picture. That is up to God to handle for us. I will pray for you and all I ask is that you acknowledge that if your heart is not in this now, it never will be. Don't be afraid to walk out if you feel led too. I also apologise on behalf of any Christian who would freely use the name of Christ in such an abusive and hurtful manner as your BF has done to you. That sort of behavior is not reflective of Christ's teachings. I do applaud your openmindedness as far as learning about new ideas and teachings. Perhaps when this is all over, you can still do that on your own. We would be glad to help you if you have any questions. Just don't do it for him. Be strong and don't be ashamed to grieve your loss. Rather you consider it a loss of innocense, a loss of potential, a loss of your baby whatever...It still amounts to loss all the same. We will be here for you and will be eagerly awaiting an update when you feel ready. May God go with you and keep you.
Hello,
I have had a such a bad time since last night. As I said before, he made it clear that he loves me, and he'll marry me if I convert. I didn't accept it.
After he left, I had a dream last night. In my dream, we (I and my BF) were preparing to go to the clinic. All of a sudden, I heard a noise from my bedroom. Somehow, I had given birth, our baby was there. He had such beautiful, blue eyes. I told my BF:"Look, we can't go to to abortion. I already gave a birth." Everything was so real.
This dream really hit me when I woke up. I felt like that I wanted to keep my baby, but on the other hand the clock was ticking, and we had an appointment to go. I called my best friend in TX and told her my dream. I was crying my eyes out. Literally...
Then, my BF came to take me. On the way, we kept talking about it. All he was concerned about what his people in his church would think about him, his image...I know that he also felt bad too. When we went there, I was still trying to convince him that I want to keep the baby, but I wouldn't want to be a single mother and was asking for his help. At this point he said that "Nina, don't think it's be so difficult to convert." I just told him he didn't know what he was talking about, this is not even his territory that he was trying to enter. I told him that "I am not saying that I am not going to convert, but I just don't know when and how. I need time. I can't commit because I simply don't know. I don't wanna tell you sweet lies just to get what I want. I am already under pressure with this issue, why to put more pressure on me?" At some point, he told me "you don't wanna do this. I don't wanna do this. We don't belong to this place." I said "no we don't. I wanna keep the baby. However, I am an honorable woman who deserves marriage, and I don't want a mistress life." He said "Nina, I can't promise you either. I can't marry you unless you convert." Then, they called my name. We just looked at each others' face in fear and doubt. I had to go, and I did. He could have stopped me, but he didn't. I went to upstairs, changed my clothes. When I went to restroom, I looked at the mirror in doubt. What am I doing here?" I even thought to dress up and go back and leave the place, but it was just too late. My operation was easy. They gave me ivy. I had searched my doctor. He was such a good one. He kept talking to me. He asked me why I don't keep the baby. (BTW they took ultrasound, it was 8 weeks 3 days). He asked me if my husband doesn't want it. I said my husband didn't want me and we are separated. FOB is my BF who is such a great guy, but he doesn't want to marry with me because of my faith. He just said "there are funny people on Earth." I took it as an affirmation that made me feel little bit better. I laid down and left myself in his hands. In 7 minutes, I was in recovery room. I laid down a little, then they gave me Cola and cookies. Also, they explained me about my prescriptions.
I went downstairs. He had cried. So had I. We just gave each other a hug. I told him "may God forgive us". I couldn't talk much in the car because I We went to Wal-mart, got my medicine. He dropped me home and left. I slept a little. I have realized that my appetite is back. I ate an actual dinner. Physically, I feel fine so far. Emotionally, I know that it has been a life-changing experience for me. I know that I'll be sad on the 17th of March (it was my due date), and even though I'll be a mother later (if God allows), I will always wonder what this kid might have looked like and the moments I and my BF experienced. I am sure that he won't forget this either. We both have been so rigid, may God forgive us.
You may say that I could have kept him/her, and I am such a coward, but I couldn't just do it. I will pray for God's forgiveness and guidance. I will be very careful about birth control from now on.
I will always keep checking this board. I want to take the opportunity to thank you for being there for me all the way through and not judging me. Your help and consultation has been highly appreciated. I believe that you are doing a great job, and when (if) I'll be a mother again, you'll be the ones I will tell first after the father and the family. Hope you remember your Muslim sister.
Nina
Nina, your account moved me to tears. I am so very sorry that you have had to suffer through this as so many of us have before you. Do you intend to continue the relationship with this man? I hardly think you would after all he has allowed you to go through without much support...That is just my $0.02 though...You have indeed joined a new sisterhood, post-abortive women often have unique emotional needs and I personally invite you to post under the post abortion support freely as often as you'd like. Take care sweetie and get some rest...I dare say you have earned it.
((((Gentle Hugs)))) Nina. Thank you for your update. I'm so sorry that you had such a difficult time before and after. I hope that the physical pain is tolerable, and we will be here to help you through the emotional pain. The Post-Abortion Forum is located here: http://www.webgroups.us/choicetolivewith/viewforum.php?f=21 You're welcome to post there whenever you'd like to. I don't think anyone here will call you a coward, although I do wish things could have gone differently so that you could have avoided the broken heart.
You're in my thoughts and prayers, and please keep talking to us. We're here to support you after the decision as well - for as long as you need.
Thank you very much for your gentle hugs Rose. I don't have anybody around me to give them to me. I feel so helpless. I feel like I made the wrong decision. I post my thoughts in Post-Abortion part. I hear you saying "I had told you". I know I should have taken your suggestion into consideration.
May God forgive me.
Nina
Nina wrote:
I hear you saying "I had told you".
I wouldn't tell you that hon, and I hope you don't think I have that attitude toward you. I just wish that the entire situation could have gone differently for you...starting from when you met BF for instance. I'm not the judgmental type, and I certainly don't want you to think that I have an I-told-you-so attitude.
I'll wait to read your post on the other forum, but also check your email if you haven't already, okay? ((((((Hugs)))))
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